Ep. 144: Stop Parenting Your Board: How to Recruit, Retain, and Lead Like a CEO with Sabrina Walker Hernandez
EPISODE 144
Stop Parenting Your Board: How to Recruit, Retain, and Lead Like a CEO with Sabrina Walker Hernandez
About the Episode:
If you’ve ever felt like your board is holding you back—or worse, like you’re stuck asking for permission to lead the organization you’re working so hard to grow, you’re not alone. In this episode, I'm joined by Sabrina Walker Hernandez, founder of Building Better Boards, to dig into why so many nonprofit CEOs get stuck parenting their boards — and how to break free from the cycle.
Sabrina’s lived it from all sides: she’s run a thriving nonprofit, serves on five boards, and is not afraid to name what’s happening behind closed doors. We talk about board bullies (yep, they exist), permission culture, burnt-out executive directors, and what happens when you stop begging and start leading with confidence. If you’ve been stuck in the cycle of over-explaining, over-prepping, or just over-it, this one will remind you: you’re more powerful than you think.
Topics:
Why asking for board approval on everything is slowing you down
The unspoken truth about board bullies (and how to reset the power dynamic)
The real reason some board members ghost—and how to bring them back
How to recruit beyond “warm bodies” and build a board that moves the mission
Why professional development isn’t a luxury—it’s essential for growth
Rewriting the mindset from scarcity and begging to leadership and partnership
The onboarding and retreat strategies that actually work
It’s not your stories—it’s how you’re telling them. If your amazing work isn’t getting the attention (and donations) it deserves, it’s time for a messaging shift. The Brave Fundraiser’s Guide guide gives you 10 done-for-you donor prompts to make your message impossible to ignore. Get it for free here! https://christinaedwards.krtra.com/t/xKuLs6tOiPZa
Christina’s Favorite Takeaways:
“Board members, executive director, and CEOs should be partners in this journey, and their mission is to try to solve a problem.” Sabrina
“Ensuring necessary resources is ensuring you have a qualified CEO and that you are fundraising.” Sabrina
“CEOs are afraid to say, here's a different way.” Sabrina
“Serving on a board is an honor.” Sabrina
“You have to create an experience for your board members.” Sabrina
“You're not going to find a board member by posting a post on LinkedIn or Facebook.” Sabrina
“You have to be the face of the organization to attract the right people to the organization.” Sabrina
“As a CEO, you gotta get out from behind the desk.” Christina
“People like success, and people will follow success.” Sabrina
“Philanthropy means the love of humankind, and so you have to have that philanthropic mindset and not this begging mentality that sometimes you easily embrace.” Sabrina
“The best onboarding process I've ever been involved in has been where you invite the new members in and the current board members do the orientation.” Sabrina
“For a board retreat, you must have a good facilitator.” Sabrina
“Your goal is to leave the world in a better place than how you found it.” Sabrina
“Well-behaved women rarely make history.”
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Episode Resources:
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Christina Edwards 0:02
welcome to the purpose and profit club podcast. Sabrina Walker, Hernandez, I am so happy you're here because I feel like I grabbed you at give con and I started peppering you with all of my board questions on an escalator, and that escalator was not long enough, so we had to have you on. So welcome and please introduce yourself to our audience.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 0:36
Yes, my name is Sabrina Walker Hernandez. I am the president and CEO of building better boards. And I love all things boards. And I will say that because I've seen it from both sides. I managed a board, and now I serve on five boards. Two of them are fundraising boards. Three are where I give out money. And I've seen it all the good, the bad and the ugly,
Christina Edwards 1:01
amazing? Yeah, you blew my mind when you told me how many boards you currently serve on. I was like, this lady walks the walk. She is in it,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 1:09
in it, and I love it. And everybody does it different. And anytime that we can say, here's a best practice. Have you tried this? Do it this way, or here's a suggestion, it always makes it better, because sometimes we just kind of see things from the seat that we're sitting in and from the way that we've always done it. And so this allows me to see the way it is done across various platforms, and even different from the way I did it when I was sat in that seat, and it has allowed me to to, you know, it's like, I says this vault of best practices, yep. And here it is, pick, pick, pick, pick, which one is going to work for you, you and your organization. So let's
Christina Edwards 1:55
start with a spicy take. What is something about boards that nobody really wants to say out loud, but we can say or you want to share a spicy take with us, your your spicy take on boards,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 2:08
my spicy takes on board. Okay, so no one wants to say this out loud, but there are a such thing as board bullies.
Christina Edwards 2:17
Oh, say more. Say more.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 2:19
So I have served with people that often times, look, I'm not saying that they're not good people. They're good people because they said yes. They said yes to serving on this nonprofit board or this corporate whatever it is, they said yes, and they said yes because they wanted to do good, but an absence of them knowing what their role and responsibility is, and an absence of us onboarding them properly, they come in thinking, my job is to tell you what to do, and because they sometimes perceive themselves to be above the CEO in a certain area, it comes across as board bullying, yep,
Christina Edwards 3:15
yep, okay, we'll talk about that. That's good. So how? Okay, let's just kind of level set. Then your philosophy, your ideology, is that, how should the board operate with the executive director or CEO? Are they not above them? I or how should they operate?
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 3:35
You are partners. You're partners in this journey, and you're trying to solve a problem, and what that problem is is different for everyone. You know, if you're in a after school space, you're trying to solve the the problem of ensuring that kids have access to quality after school program. If you're an environmental space, that's the mission. But you are partners on this journey, and you're trying to solve a problem right now. When you look at legally, board of directors, there's a CEO, and the board has the authority. I don't want to say board doesn't have an authority. They have the authority, right? However, you're not going to take the mission further. If you're using that authority as a detriment to the organization. It is a true partnership, and so you have to, you have to work towards that partnership.
Christina Edwards 5:09
Okay. So what this is reminding me of is something that I've been thinking about lately, when, when somebody says, sort of laments about really, what you're describing is, like, whether it's the board or one person at the board that is just kind of in this oversight type of role. And I was thinking about it lately, and I was like, it actually feels like when it's this and not done, done in the right way, but in the wrong way. A parent and a child only. We are all adults. We are all adults. And when it's not that partnership that you're talking about, it is my six year old who just said to me yesterday, I need a third pair of sneakers. I was like, Do you Do you need a third pair of the same, like your foot grows all the time, right? That's like a good where I'm gonna go ahead and say yes or no to that, right? Versus where it gets in the cycle of I feel like I'm asking for permission of my board. I feel like I'm asking for approval for my board on things that are not necessarily Board approval items. So what do you think? Yeah, well, I I'm
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 6:21
so on board with that. But here's the kicker, too. I say that about we don't talk about board bullies. But on the flip side of that, I've had this conversation with CEOs all the time, they too, sometimes set up the dynamics when approval right? Why are you going to your board for approval to spend $500 why are you going to your board for approval to discipline or terminate a staff? Why are you inviting your board to micromanage? You are sending them mixed signals. That's right. That is enough. What are
Christina Edwards 7:05
your thoughts on that? Why? I have a theory. But why are they doing that?
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 7:09
So I just had a conversation with someone the other day, and she said, Well, I just want them to know that I'm spending the money right. I just want them to know that, you know this is a nonprofit, and I'm taking care of the resources. And I was like, Yeah, that's what the budget approval process is for. They don't, they don't manage to, but you manage the budget. And so what, As I continue to talk to people, and I have another client, and they happen to all be female, don't have this a lot with the males. They will say things like, well, they're volunteers. And I don't, I don't, you know, I don't want to put a lot of pressure on them. So, you know, especially when it comes to fundraising, or they'll say, they'll say things, well, I it's not, I can't tell them what to do, and I'm like, but yes,
Christina Edwards 8:06
you can, yes you can. Yeah, I do think it can kick off in this way, and once it starts in that way, it is like you're turning around a ship, which can be a slow, arduous process. Yes. Also think particularly with women, yeah, we are geared for being people pleasers. We are geared for what I call group think, right, especially in the nonprofit world. And I think those are the two kind of drivers of, you know, a lot of like the marketing and fundraising side, we do that I like hammer home to my clients is, I'm like, you don't put that email through a committee for approval. You're not putting it through 10 people to go, Hey, 10 people from all walks of life are on our board. And by the way, have your own lives. Will you read this email before I send it out? That's just our Tuesday update like that. Again, is like, that's what I would do for my child, my child. Why are we doing that for two for adults
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 9:00
and and here's the thing, in building that partnership, your partner needs to be confident that you can handle the situation. And if you are saying, can you read this email for me before I send out, or can you approve this $500 or whatever it is, yeah, you are not projecting the confidence that is required in a partnership. Yeah.
Christina Edwards 9:25
So what would you say then, to to the CEO, to the executive director, who is currently going to their board for approval for items, whether it's $500 I've had people say, I gotta, I gotta check with my board for $200 I've got to check with my board for $0 I still, you know anything over $1 you know. And then I have people who will say, you know, a couple $1,000 $5,000 and it's interesting, it is an arbitrary threshold, um, that I find is not necessarily a. Establish in writing. It's established in just the culture of, well, I don't know. I just feel like I should ask someone, what should Is there a threshold? What should that look like?
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 10:09
So there's such things as procurement policies, right? And so in those procurement policies, you can establish that threshold. And for my organization, it was anything over $5,000 I had to get Board approval for outside of that, it was no board approval. And so that threshold of $5,000 in our partnership, we established that threshold. That's what they were comfortable with, that's right? What I was comfortable with. It put some guidelines in place. It didn't slow down the operations of the organization. And so that's where that partnership comes in, and having those procurement policy look that is a part of the board's role. It is trusteeship. I'm going to use the word, it's oversight, but that's oversight, meaning have an annual operating budget, you have policies, you have procedures, that is what it is. And then ensuring necessary resources is making sure you have a qualified CEO and that you are fundraising. That is your role, and in the absence of knowing, again, what your role is, a lot of board members will create what they think they should be doing, because people don't understand our industry. Look, I've been with my husband 32 years. I've been in the nonprofit industry for 28 of those 32 years. He looked at me the other day and he said, I don't know what a not. I don't know about this nonprofit works. And I'm like, Jesus, like you live with me. I live, breathe and eat this stuff. And I get a little frustrated because he's like, Well, what does the board do again, right, right? And how does that work? And I'm like, Okay, you're a leader in the community. If someone invites you on their board, here's the thing, if someone invites him on their board, they're going to assume, because he's a leader in his field, that he knows what it means to serve on a board. Yeah, he has no idea. And what's going to happen is, when he says yes, he's going to sit there and adopt the culture there it is. Not push back on why are we doing it like this? Isn't there a different way to do this? And it just becomes this thing that we do it this way, because this is the way it's always been done. And be afraid. And when I say, We CEOs are afraid to say, here's a different way.
Christina Edwards 12:49
That's right.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 12:52
I would say it's a sense of fear, one, but there's also a lack of professional development, yeah, industry as well. So, you know, you're a CEO, then a small organization, you don't have a budget process. That's one. You gotta get everything approved. That's, that's two. And let's say, you know, there's, there's a summit or workshop, and it costs $97 or $250 Yeah, your mindset immediately goes to Oh no, my board that, oh no, we could not do why are they charging for that? We are a non profit organization that should be free for us. Girl, I've heard it
Christina Edwards 13:32
all. Why is that a problem? Sabrina, why is that a problem? That is what
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 13:37
you called a you know, you have you ever heard of the culture for I know you have. You're in this business, the culture of philanthropy, yeah? And that begging mindset, that begging mindset tells us that there is scarcity as opposed to abundance, yeah? That begging mindset says we are a nonprofit, and we don't invest in our professional staff or our board, because we have to make sure we take care of the resources. And that begging mindset, taking care of the resources is only direct service. That's right, and that philanthropy mindset, it says if I invest in my people, they're going to get an increased skill set. When they get an increased skill set, we can increase our fundraising. When we increase our fundraising, we can increase the number of clients that we serve. There it is vision.
Christina Edwards 14:39
Yeah. So
Unknown Speaker 14:43
check your mentality, check yes and,
Christina Edwards 14:45
and there's a leap to that, right? There's a leap of, like, I'm gonna spend $97 in the workshop. I'm gonna spend $3,000 on the thing, yes. And there is, there is a space between that investment and then it returning an ROI. Right? But holding all of your your dollars so tightly keeps your organization exactly where it is. That's sort of the thing that I see happen again and again, exactly where
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 15:09
it is. So I will share this and people and you might get this too, they might ask, Well, how much should you, you know, invest in professional development? Look again, we are in an industry best practices. All I can tell you is from my lived experience and from Christina your lived experience. Yeah, I said in that seat, my budget was seven. When I first inherited, the budget was like $750,000 so we invested like $15,000 in professional development. That professional development included myself, my staff and my board. When we grew our budget to about 2.5 million, we invested in about 32,000 Yeah, that's a low percentage. Yeah,
Christina Edwards 15:56
yes, yes, that still is a low percentage. Yeah.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 16:02
So it pays to invest in your professional development. And we all know this, your mama told you this. So your your family told you, whoever told you this, if it's for free, you might not be you get what you pay for. I don't even know how to say it, yeah, yeah.
Christina Edwards 16:20
Well, you also you take it more seriously. You show up to the calls. You do the work when it's paid. I mean, I know this, I know this, I know this. I am this. I am the person who's like, I'll sign up for that. How to Yeah, no, I'm gonna flake on it when it's free. When I put my Tuesday night ceramics class, I invested money in it, my butt is showing up even when it doesn't feel
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 16:40
like exactly, exactly and same, except for boards of directors. Look your board of directors again. They need professional development. Here's the thing I have had so many people like, how do you identify your board chair? Oh, the Tag, you're it. That's that's what we doing out here. So
Christina Edwards 17:04
that is how I was board secretary. That is how I became board secretary. I was like, Oh, damn it, yes, exactly, not it. I didn't say not it, fast enough. You know, that was my first foray, yes, yes. And
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 17:22
that's not look, serving on a board is an honor, and you have to position it as an That's right. And it shouldn't be a tag. You're it. It should be. You want to do this for the betterment of the organization, but a lot of times is we as board members, because I'm looking at it from both sides too. That's right? As a board member, you're like, dang it, I got stuck with second dang it. I got stuck with this because you're, you're working in a framework that's not organized or professional, right? Know that? God, I gotta do all this work.
Christina Edwards 17:59
Former auction, auction committee member also here, that was another dang it moment. You want to, you want your board members to. And it's not that I didn't want to help either of these organizations thrive. It's that i Those were not my natural skill sets, right? And so, yeah,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 18:17
yeah. You want to be a long victim who said yes, and they said, alright, and not your natural skill set. And nobody said, here's some training you can do. Nobody said, Let me send you auctions camp or let me send you over here to the Nobody did that. And that's what I'm saying. That's how we set our boards up for failure. And then we get frustrated when we say our boards won't fundraise, or our board that's right, or our board won't do that. And I'm like, Well, what experience are you creating for them? You know? And you got to create an experience for them again. They're giving up their their time, that's right, giving up their talent, and they're giving up their treasure. That's a whole nother conversation, because you got to talk about that when you join the board. But again,
Christina Edwards 19:09
go ahead, let's talk about, I am going to talk about when you join the board. Okay, so we got to talk about recruitment, because that is a big one. That's a big one especially, I would say, for early stage nonprofits, nonprofits who are on their way to hit a million. Um, board of recruitment is just a challenge. And I find people come to me with it's a mixed bag, but there is this unintentional kind of belief system of like, I just need warm bodies. Sometimes it's that and so that's when we get just a board bodies. You get just warm bodies, yeah, if you're like, Well, I don't just want WARM BODIES, right? I do want a board that's that's passionate about our work. I do want a board that is committed to helping, but, but where I've tried, where do I find. Them, that's the big question.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 20:01
That's always the big question, where it is right. And here's the deal, you're not going to find them by posting a post on LinkedIn or Facebook. That's not going to happen. If you recall, I said that serving on the board is an honor, and so you have to present it as such. And there's a camp that says, Yeah, put it out there, do that. But there, in my lived experience, again, it is a exclusive process. People like exclusivity. I don't care how you shape it, what it looks like. And so it is a another board member inviting someone to be on the board, but not in a way that they're guaranteed to be on the board. It is. We have a slot open, and the name came up for consideration. Would you be willing to apply?
Christina Edwards 20:59
Everyone she's saying board application. She's not just saying they said, Yes, I'll take anyone.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 21:06
I sell them in a grocery store, and I said, and they said they would, and so, and I just put
Christina Edwards 21:13
them on a roster. That's right. And now I don't know why they're not coming to meetings Exactly,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 21:17
exactly. Well, yeah, they didn't even know they were on the board. It was, it would be a nice
Christina Edwards 21:24
Okay, so, so some recruitment through warm connections. That's an avenue. I'm hearing the objection in my ear. I can just hear it. I we don't have anyone with any suddenly, and no one has any warm connections to anyone.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 21:41
So here you go. Here's my one of the things that I learned early on when I first became a CEO. I remember someone in the community, my former CEO, she called me and she said, they say, You're never in the office. And I say, that's pretty That's right. And as I cannot run this organization from my desk, I have to be out. I have to go to the chamber meetings. I have to go to the city council meetings. I need to go to the rotary meeting, to the kiowans meeting, to the lions meeting. I have to be the face of the organization so that we can attract the right people to the organization that's right. And so that was the that should be your mindset. You need to be out in the community, in those circles, and you also at any place that you are, including church, yeah, you're always filtering for opportunity for the
Christina Edwards 22:44
organization. That's right. And your barista should know what you do, like the people should in your you know, the same 10 places you go in over the course of a week. Yeah, I think there is something about, you know, the people in aftercare know what I do, right, the people that I see, and why? Why does it matter? Why doesn't it like opening up, opening up your possibility, and I think to your point of like, you gotta get out from behind the desk, right? You
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 23:13
want to, you gotta get out from behind the desk. And if you say, well, all my board members are virtual, then from behind the desk for you may look like establishing a a authority on LinkedIn, yeah, maybe that's it, but you have to get from behind the desk, and you have to meet people where they are. Look people like success, and people will follow success. I would not join a board that presented themselves as, oh, we just need, you know, we just need some a warm body. Oh, we just need you to just show it when you can Oh, we just need what you can spare. That's not the that's not where successful people who are going to take you to the next level hang. That is not their mindset. That is not their way trajectory. They like success. So even I don't like the term fake it till you make it. But even if you gotta fake it till you make it, yeah, fake it till you make it. You got the job
Christina Edwards 24:13
two. It's like, what's Yeah, what's the version of your organization five years from now, show up as that CEO today, what meetings are you going to? What conversations are you having? Who are you putting yourself in front of? You've got to do that now. And I promise you, you're not just sitting behind a screen. And I think my version that I hear sometimes is, you know, Christina, we're posting on social media. Where are the donations? And I'm like, it is not if you post it, it will come. It is not if you put on LinkedIn, the applications will come a flood in. That's why, and that's why so much of what I teach is is rooted in partnerships, right? It's rooted in relationships. And so what I'm hearing is very similar thing here with board, yeah, yeah, with
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 24:55
what is this is the same thing. You know, people want again. People want to be a part of success, and so you have to create that success for them, and it doesn't mean like so let me give you a real life example. I remember when I inherited my board and great board members, great nice people, but they were not the people that I needed to get to the next level. And so I went to one of our donors and very influential person in the community, and I said I had to have a plan. I said, this is what I want the board to look like. Yeah. I said, this is what we have. And he helped strategize who we needed to get on the board to start that transformation. It took a while to do the transformation, but sometimes you just need that one catalyst that can say, Oh, they're on the board.
Christina Edwards 25:55
Hmm,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 25:56
maybe that's something I could look at as an opportunity right there it is, yeah. And so that's how you have to do it. But as long as you sit back and say, Well, nobody's going to serve on this board, I put it on LinkedIn, and nobody said anything, and nobody did anything, you're going to continue to get what you what you get. And so it goes back to mindset. A lot of this goes back to mindset.
Christina Edwards 26:17
It really does, yeah,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 26:20
you gotta have that philanthropic look. Philanthropy means the love of humankind, and so you have to have that philanthropic mindset and not this begging mentality that sometimes you easily embrace. And I know it's a shock for some, depending on where you're at in your development and your organization. Because for some people, if they're literally at the start, they just started this nonprofit because they used to go out, let's say they used to go out and hand clothes out to the homeless. And somebody said, you know, you should start a nonprofit so you can get attacked. You know, people will give to you, then that's a myth. They're not just gonna give to you because you good and you started a nonprofit. There's so many out there. We have a choice right where we give our time and our talent and our treasure, and we want to make sure that we're giving it to to something that's going to be around for long term. And if you're honest and say, this is where we're at in the development and this is how I need your help to take us to the next level, the person who's willing to take on that challenge will gladly accept it. I've done that. I've gladly accepted that challenge. Non profit. Now we're five years in, and I'm like, Okay, guys, we need to start bringing in people that are not in our circle. Yeah, we need to start expanding. What is that going to force you to do? That's going to force you to send that dag on board packet 72 hours in advance, like I've been telling you for the last five years, instead of sending it to me like the hour before the meeting, because we all pool right? So we have to also say, okay, what are we doing here? And acknowledge our shortfalls and work towards increasing those utilities.
Christina Edwards 28:19
Do you believe that, like the the starter board, could turn into your scaling board? Or do you believe that the board does evolve and that that it will the sort of the people that got you there, that laid that foundation tends to be, I find friends, family, people you know, people cheering you on,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 28:40
yes, yes. It needs to evolve, yeah, and it has to evolve. Not so I'm an avid believer in term limit. I am, but I'm also an avid believer in if a board member is producing, then they get to stay. Uh huh. Did that look in my organization? It looked like we had one, two and three year terms. Anybody that was new comes in in a one year term, if they like them, they like us, we move them up to a two, a three year term, and then we can renew that three year term as many times as we want to, as long as they're producing okay. So and then with the the new board last year. So I said this organization has been around for five years. They were very, very open in the recruitment process, telling me what they needed me for I was the one with the, you know, background and non profit, all of that good stuff, and what happens? And I was just sure what happened to me is, year three, I was tired, right? I'm like, Y'all, everybody has to level up. Up, yeah, just be because you have this experience that I'm going to leave it all on you. So I was, I was burning out, and I remember, I'm telling them, I think this, I'm not going to renew my term. I think this is going to be, this is going to be it for me, yeah. And I remember the shock and like, oh my god, what are we going to do? But it has to be done in order to make room for the next level. Because if you stay and you can stay if you're producing, but if you stay and noone else around you is producing, then are you enabling certain behaviors.
Christina Edwards 30:44
Yeah, right, yeah,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 30:46
yeah. You gotta, you gotta do always, always do what is best for the organization. Oh, so even the board member.
Christina Edwards 30:55
When you have a board member who maybe used to produce, as you say, used to be engaged. Used to, you know, when they say, like, yeah, yeah, I'll do that. And they used to do that. And then they're, they're not anymore, and they haven't been anymore for some time. What next? What's
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 31:15
what Next is a conversation, because you might be experiencing exactly what I was experiencing, yeah, um, I'm feeling taken advantage of, um, I need other people to step up. It's Oh, have that conversation, and so I'm just again. My experience is they had that conversation with me, and I said, this is what I need in order to stay another two years or three years, whatever that term was, this is what I mean. And it was an honest and open conversation, and it made a change in our in our board and our Dynamics. I'm proud to say about that board right now is we went from seven people now we're at 11 people, and we're inviting two people that's not in our inner circle, yes, reviewing two people not in the inner circle. So I'm very proud of them. And it didn't happen overnight, you know? And it Yep, it's difficult conversations to have to happen, yeah,
Christina Edwards 32:18
and I think to your point of just feeling that burnout, feeling like, if we just jump in the in the shoes of the board member, and you think about their experience, to our earlier conversation of asking permission, whether it's will you look at this email? Will you look at this appeal? What do you think about this event? How much do we spend on flowers? I want to do a two page appeal that's going to cost more at the printer. Is that cool? What do you think that's burning them out like that list, even just for me to say out loud, instead of high level, what are the actual things that we need them to go yes, no, or that we want to partner with them? Yeah. It like turns into this weird internal admin minutia situation, yeah, yeah. And
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 33:05
it's not, it's not, it's not the purpose of the board. It is not, yeah, and it's and, and sometimes when I say these things out loud, Christina, I'd be honest with you, Christina, when I say these things out loud and I'm sitting across from a CEO, they shut down on me because they don't want to hear that. A lot of times you have to be open to hear that. You have to be open to hear it, take it in and say, Okay, what can I do different? It is so much easier to say, Well, my board won't let me. Yes. Board won't do this. Yes, yes, do it. And I that was what that was a part of my journey, too. I remember that I was talking to a fellow CEO. His name is Patrick When he is the CEO of the Boys and Girls Club in Northern Alabama. So go support him, y'all. And I remember sitting across from him, saying, My board won't let me. I can't remember what my board wouldn't let me do my board let me do that. That was something I said. And he just stopped, and he looked at me. He said, What do you mean? Your board won't let you? He said, You're the boss. Your board is waiting on you. There it is, yeah, and I was like, oh, oh, okay, all right now, so that's water's waiting on me. So I need to develop the plan. I need to be I need to develop the plan and say, Okay, this is where we're going and what it not? How do you feel about that is not the kiss validated for me. Now there's nothing more having like a board champion that you bounce ideas off of and do all that, but when you present it to the board, you have a well thought out plan. Yeah, and then they can ask the questions, and you have a well thought out response. And it's a partnership now. It's now different, yeah, so it's
Christina Edwards 35:13
such a weird dynamic, but I guess it's just because I have young ish kids. It's like, I just see it so much of like, if I said to my kids, well, like, gosh, I don't know. Like, I don't know how we're gonna afford that. I don't know about, oh, like, you think your sister is gonna do okay and, like, every or could you check out? Like, everyone would be, like, very unconfident, very insecure, overwhelmed. Versus the relationship where I give them our the best version, the version we're working towards the goal. And then I'm like, can we all work together? We actually had to clean out a closet because we were getting a new hot water heater. Not fun. None of this is fun my daughter's closet. So I'm like, everybody's getting on board. We got to get rid of stuff. And it's like, okay, we can then partner as a team to get rid of it, versus being like, this is going to be so hard, I don't want to do it right. It's just, but somebody has to have the CEO energy there, I think is ultimately what I'm hearing from you is like it takes somebody to step into that authority, and then people will follow and also feel more energized. Yes,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 36:15
they will follow. They will feel energized. So like they will have confidence in you, because you know what you're doing, all of that and piggyback imma. Go back back to say this starts with a good board recruitment process, once you have that in place, a good onboarding, yep, and orientation and and some good training around roles and responsibilities. Because if you go in there, you listen to this, and you get all hyped up, right? And you go in there and you say, I'm the boss, and this is what you're doing, and all that. You still gotta deal with that board who has no idea what their role is, and who may be micromanaging, because that's the energy that has been produced so far. They're not going to change overnight. Mm, hmm. So don't go in there and be like Christina and Sabrina said, All I had to do was I'm gonna tell
Christina Edwards 37:06
you to do this. I'm gonna tell you to stop doing that's right.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 37:10
No, right? It the same way. It takes some time to build that system. It takes time to dismantle that
Christina Edwards 37:19
yes, yes, yes. So onboarding is key for new folks. That's really, really key. I think that's a miss for a lot of organizations. I think it's a miss because they're like, we're too busy to onboard, but we see the results of that. So I'm hearing onboarding
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 37:34
Yes, and it's not my email with a link that says, here's all our data and here's the folder in here. That's okay. We then,
Christina Edwards 37:43
what is it? What is it instead, if it's not that,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 37:47
it is not that, do not just do that to them, it is the best onboarding process I've ever been involved in has been where you have, you bring, you, invite the new members in and the current board members does the orientation, current secretary reviews. These are our bylaws. Here's a set of our last three minutes, blah, blah, blah. This treasurer says, this is, this is the budget. This is how we move through it. This is, you know, we have an endowment. We have this. They go through that, the board chair says, I we expect you to attend 75% of the meetings in person. We do have the option for zoom, but that's, you know, if you're traveling, if you're doing that. We do have the expectation that every board member will give to the to to the organization. We have this, that, and then it's the CEO, if, especially this, this organization was facility based, then it's the CEO taking you on a tour, yep, or the organization. But you notice it was the board we remember speaking, not That's right, CEO, I
Christina Edwards 39:02
love that. I love that. So do you work with organizations? So I want to kind of dig into how you work with organizations, but is one way I'm thinking about the existing board, which is like, we kind of need to, like, shift, shift the the culture. We need to shift how it's working. Do we turn? Do you work with boards to turn that, turn that culture around?
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 39:21
Yes, I work with boards to turn that culture around. It's a process. You know, again, I'm a strong believer in Board education, so it usually starts off with doing a board survey. I What usually happens is a board chair would call me, or a CEO will call me, and they're like, my board, and we need this and we need that. And I'm like, Okay, that's good. We can tell them what they need, but let's give them an opportunity to have a voice and engagement, so unless not a survey, here's what it is, and have them rank what trainings they think they need. And then basically, we can set up a scale. Schedule, and we can offer these trainings, whether they're in person, if they happen to be local or virtual, and we and they commit to the time that is going to be required for them to become educated in this process, right? So that is one way. The other way that I work with boards, of course, is I love a good board retreat, yes. Oh, I just love a good board retreat, because you can walk out if you have the right theme, then you know where you're going. You can really walk out and start changing some of the dynamics, right? Yeah. Well, a good board retreat.
Christina Edwards 40:42
Can I just say a good retreat? Any I've been on business retreats, board like, a good board retreat has a facilitator like that is a skill set like I think sometimes it's, oh well, the board is gathering together for a period of time, overnight, at a place. It is a it is a science. It is an art. It is to be a facilitator, to ask those questions, to figure out the breakout like I wouldn't even know how to host a board of retreat, right? I just know how to attend one. I know how to attend one that is a retreat that is change, making you leave a different person. You leave with clarity. So having a facilitator is key. Y'all. For the board,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 41:22
you need to have a good facilitator. It is exactly right. And sometimes you could, as CEO, you can say the same thing over and over again, and they will not hear you, don't
Christina Edwards 41:32
they just need to hear it from a third party. That's right? Third party, yeah.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 41:36
And you are strategic in that you have a conversation with the person who is facilitated beforehand to say, this is what we need to this is the outcome that I'm looking for. Yep, they will design their facilitation to get to that outcome. Love it. So it's all strategy and and so I don't want just like be hire me to do your retreat, and we don't have no conversations, because, yes, yeah, I need to know what your vision is and what you're trying to accomplish from this. And so I do that a lot, and I take on a couple of clients a year for coaching, because it starts in the mind, and if your mind is not there, I can talk to him blue in the face. Christina, can work with you until you're blue in the face if you don't have the mind. Yep, you're not going to go, that's right, execute. You're not going to get there, and you gotta figure that out.
Christina Edwards 42:38
That's right. I love that. Yeah, totally agree. Mind first. We ask every guest on the podcast to share a favorite thought, affirmation, a belief, something that's like a go to that just really guides you forward, makes your heart full. Would you take a moment and share a thought that you like to think on purpose with us. Well,
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 43:02
it's not going to be as profound as you think. And I say this to myself all the time. Yeah, it is. Well behaved women rarely make history. Oh,
Christina Edwards 43:14
come on, that's so good.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 43:17
I have say it again. Well behaved women rarely make history, so you gotta shake things up. You that is, that is what we're here for. And I have a shirt that says it is my motto on my Facebook page. Yes, I have, I have it in my home. So you know this thing about sitting back quietly is not something that I prescribe to. I just don't. And yeah, and I know to in order to make change, sometimes it's uncomfortable, yep, but you got to do it anyway, because your goal is to leave the world in a better place in which you found it. That's right, if you don't embrace that, then why are you here? You know?
Christina Edwards 44:11
Oh, so good. That was a good one. Good. Okay, tell everyone where we can connect with you, follow you, where you like to hang out online.
Sabrina Walker Hernandez 44:20
Well, um, you know, I've been to enough courses and classes. They say, give one call to action. Call the action is you can visit my website, at building better boards.com, but if the platform I hang out the most is LinkedIn, under my we'll
Christina Edwards 44:39
link your your LinkedIn, for sure. Thank you so so much. I've, I've left this conversation feeling very positive for and also I can already hear feel myself, just like all of my clients are going to get this to listen to. This is going to be very fulfilling and very like giving them the motivation. Because whether it's a you. Just an inactive board, or they know that they want to do more board recruitment. These are all solvable problems. You can right side this anytime you want. So thank you for giving us that. Thank you. All right, let me hit the stop button. I'm.